de Dormans

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It has often been claimed that our Limburgian family descended from France. For there is - near Reims in the region of Champagne - a French city with our family name of Dormans. Sometimes I have spotted in the houses of family members stained glass windows with the arms of the highly-noble family, “de Dormans”. The family nestor lived at the local castle and was Lord of Dormans. In my book “Het geslacht Dormans,” I have noted briefly what I knew about this mediaeval family. I had recieved all French data from the mayor of Dormans, Mr. Andre Barbier. It offers a description of only some generations from 1295, with the conclusion that this family became extinct in about 1550. As the possibilities of genealogical research 20 years later by internet are now much broader and accessible, I have renewed my interests and remain confident about the connections to this French family. 

The geographic distance between the city of Dormans and south-Limburg is only 250 km, so it is reasonable to speculate that the family may have migrated.

The eldest known South-Limburgian ancestor was Mathias Dormans, who married in Heerlen in 1597. His birth date and birth place are unknown. He had 2 sons and 2 daughters. It was not possible to look further in the past, as most of the ecclesiastical archives only started in 1600. 

If a pedigree of the French family could be constructed, a possible link with the Limburgian family may become more clear. All collected data below was researched online on accessible archives: a list of Malthese knights in France, a list of bishops in various French cities, the will of Jean II de Dormans, etc. 

I. Jean de Dormans, born about 1290, died about 1347, married about 1320 to Antoinette d’Escot, born about 1300. Jean I de Dormans was Lord of Dormans and count of Lisieux. He became attorney-general in the Parish parliament in 1347, as well as chairman of the parliament. The couple had 7 children:

II-1 Jean II de Dormans, born Dormans about 1320, died in Paris on Monday, 7-11-1373. He studied justice, became in 1355 substitute of the attorney-general in the parlement, in 1336 archdeacon of Brie and canon in Soissons, in 1348 private teacher of crown-prince Charles V, at 21-9-1357 chancellor of the duke of Normandy, at 19-11-1358 bishop of Lisieux, and from 1360 till 1368 bishop of Beauvais. He was one of the French delegates at the conference, resulting in the Pact of England in 1360. He was from 28-2-1361 till 1372 chancellor of France, appointed by king Jean of France; at 21-9-1368 he became count and cardinal of Beauvais, appointed by pope Urbanus V, (Jean II de Dormans baptisted Charles VI in the church of Saint Paul in Paris), and in 1371 papal ambassador of pope Gregorius XI. At 8-5-1370 he erected the Collège de Dormans-Beauvais in Paris, a school where higher education was given. Twelve students from the city of Dormans or from the diocese Soissons get free education. That school has existed till the French revolution. The chapel in the rue de Beauvais is now (2011) in use by the Roumanian orthodox community as archiepiscopal cathedral. Jean II was buried in the church of  Chartreux in Paris, where his mausoleum is.

II-2 Guillaume I de Dormans, born about 1325, died 11-7-1373. He was knight (1370), became in 1373 substitute of the attorney-general in the parlement as well as chancellor of France at 21-2-1371, appointed by king Charles V. He was  ambassador in England, and Lord of Dormans, Nozay and Silly. In about 1355 he married Jeanne-Barbe (Baube), Lady of Silly (born about 1325, died 1387). From this marriage:

• III-1 Jean III de Dormans, born 1366, died Sens 2-9-1386. He became canon of the cathedrals of Paris, Chartres and  Beauvais. He was buried in the chapel of the Collège de Dormans-Beauvais in Paris.
• III-2 Bernhard de Dormans, born 1365, died november 1381, married in 1381 Marguerithe de Craon (born 1370, died  1420), childless. In 1377 Bernhard de Dormans was chamberlain of Louis, the duke of Anjou, knight, and Lord of Dormans and Soupy. He had no clerical function, otherwise than his 4 brothers.
• III-3 Regnault I de Dormans, died in Paris may 1386. Regnault (also called Renaud) was archdeacon of Chalons, canon of  the cathedral Notre-Dame in Paris, in Chartres and  Soissons, and member of the council of state of the king in 1379.
• III-4 Miles de Dormans, (born about 1340, died Paris 17-8-1387. Miles (also called Milon) de Dormans was doctor in civil and canonical justice, count of Dormans, became in 1361 de prime chairman of the Parish audit-office, archdeacon of Meaux, canon of Saint-Quentin, bishop of Angers (1371-1373), Bayeux (1374) and Beauvais (1375). He became chancellor of the duke of Anjou, and in 1380 minister of justice. At 29-11-1377 he became chairman of the Parish audit-office. In 1384 he joined with 200 lancers at the French army under the leadership of Enguerrand VII de Coucy, advancing on the direction of Italy. From 1-10-1380 till 1383 he was chancellor of France. He was buried in the chapel of the Collège de Dormans-Beauvais in Paris.
• III-5 Guillaume II de Dormans, died 25-10-1415. He had a bastard-son: Gullaume de Dormans, who was legalised in 1440. Guillaume II de Dormans became chairman of the Parish parlement, archdeacon and bishop in Meaux (1379), and  archbishop in Sena (1390). He was Lord of Lisy, Monceauc  and Goussainville. He was doctor in civil rights. He was buried in the church of Chartreux in Paris.
• III-6 Jeanne de Dormans, (born about1350, died after 1407). She married twice: in about 1375 with Philibert de Paillart (born 1340, died 2-8-1387), eight children, and in 1390 with Pierre de Rochefort, knight. Philibert de Paillart was knight, and at 4-4-1370 he became chairman of the Parish parlement. He  was Lord of Paillart and Silly, citizen of Beaune and  chancellor of Bourgogne (1363). At 2-8-1387 he died from  pestilence in Paris.
• III-7 Yde de Dormans, (born about 1350, died 8-10-1379), married Robert de Nesle (born 1350, died 1378). She was Lady of Fleury-en-Montagne. One son: Jean de Nesle, born 1370,  died 1396. Robert de Nesle and afterwards also his son Jean were Lord of Saint-Venant and Sauchoy, and knight.

II-3 Pierre de Dormans, born about 1340, died 1397, married about 1390 Marguerithe de Louans (born about 1365, died before  1397). By marriage Pierre was Lord of Nozay, and became  chairman of the parlement in Bourgogne. He was knight, alias “Balossier”, and Lord of Dormans. From this marriage three children:

• III-1 Jean IV de Dormans, born about 1395, see further at III-1
• III-2 Marguerithe de Dormans, married Jean de La Vielle.
• III-3 Third child, daughter de Dormans, married Hugues VII de Conflans (died after 1393). From this marriage one child: Eustache IV de Conflans. Hugues VII was Lord of Conflans and Sommevesle, and field-marshal of Champagne.

II-4 Simon de Dormans, Lord of Rideau, captain of Reims. He had at least one son:

• III-1 Antoine de Dormans, Lord of Rideau. Three children:

              -IV-1 Emery de Dormans

              -IV-2 Geoffrine de Dormans, died after 1407.

              -IV-3 Jeanne de Dormans, died after 1407.

II-5 Agnes de Dormans, married Jacques Lessart.

II-6 Marie de Dormans, married N.I. de Charly.

II-7 Gilette (Ginette?) de Dormans, born about 1335, married 1364 Jean II de Chanteprime (born 1340, died at 2-11-1410 in Sens). Jean II de Chanteprime was Lord of Champlot, Avrolles and Pont de Bar. He was chancellor of France in 1399, treasurer and royal officer. They had 10 children:

• III-1 Jean IV de Dormans, Lord of Nozay. At least he had three children:

              -IV-1 Regnaud II de Dormans (also called Regnault II), born  about 1435, died Chartreux, Paris 11-11-1472. King Louis IX had trust in Regnaud II de Dormans, and Regnaud II de Dormans was appointed by him as attorney-general of the parlement. He was informant at the council of state, and ambassador in Rome. He was Lord of Nozay, Saint-Remy and Herpont. He was buried in the chapel of the Collège de Dormans-Beauvais in Paris. He married in 1465 Colombe de Bonnay (born about 1445, died before 14-1-1478). From this marriage three children:

V-1 Guillaume III de Dormans, born about 1470, married about 1500 Marie de Pièdefer (died 10-2-1510). First Guillaume III de Dormans was a sheld-barrier, later knight, Lord of Nozay, Saint Martin, Saint-Remy and Serpont, and at 12-11-1507 chairman of the parlement in Dijon, Bourgogne. Five children:

              VI-1 Jean V de Dormans, born about 1505, married about 1530 Isabeau Anjorrant, born about 1504. Jean V was knight, Lord of Saint-Remy and Nozay, and in 1525 member of the parlement in Rouen.

              VI-2 Charles I de Dormans, born about 1505, died about 1572. He married Jacqueline Le Cocq (died 5-6-1547). See further VI-2

              VI-3 Louis de Dormans. In 1535 he was a Malthese knight, Commander of Sours and Arville, with the arms of the Dormans family: three golden leopard heads with a red tongue and an azure background.

              VI-4 Marie de Dormans (born about 1505, died 28-8-1570), married at 31-1-1521 Jean VI de Longueil (born about 1500, died 1-5-1551). Jean VI was Lord of Sevres and Maisons, and chairman of the Parish parlement.

              VI-5 Jacquette de Dormans, nun in the abbey of Ambonn.

V-2 Francois de Dormans, died at an early age.

V-3 Colombe de Dormans, died before 1499, married Ferry de Lisques. Ferry de Lisques was shield-barrier, and later Lord of Tofflet and lieutenant-general in the district of the mayor of Ponthieu and Mayeur d’Abbeville from 1504.

              -IV-2 Second child de Dormans, nun.

              -IV-3 Third child de Dormans, nun.

              -A daughter of Regnault II de Dormans (his fourth child?) married Jacques de Laon. In 1525 he became Lord de Dormans, and in 1532 owner of the castle in Dormans and the accessory estates.

              -VI-2 Charles I de Dormans, (born about 1505, died after 1572) married Jacqueline de Cocq (died 7-6-1547). Charles I was knight, in 1530 member of the parlement in Rouen, Lord of Rozay, Bièvres-Le-Châtel and Gisy. At least one child:

              VII-1 Charles II de Dormans, born about 1550, married Marie de Marseille. Charles II de Dormans was Lord of Bièvre, and chairman of the audit-office in Paris in 1568. Four children:

              VIII-1 Marie de Dormans (died 8-9-1596), married at 14-2-1580 René Poince De Pincé, died 1596. René was Lord of Moirieulx, Chambrejays and Anjou. He was member of the council of state.

              VIII-2 Isabeau Elisabeth de Dormans, married 13-4-1587 Francois de La Béraudière, died 1646. After Francois de La Béraudière, member of the Parish parlement and Lord of Signon, had become a widower, he became abbot of Saint-Junien de Nouaillè and of Saint-Bènoit, and dean of Poiters, and in 1614 bishop of Pèrigueux.

              VIII-3 Charlotte de Dormans (died 1595), married Antoine de Soubsefour, died 1605. Antoine was viscount of Vaux, and Lord of Moiseray.

              VIII-4 Suzanne de Dormans, (died in Paris at 5-8-1638) married for the first time with Francois de Saint Baussan (died 1628), and for the second time with Aigan de Baussan. Francois de Saint Baussan was Lord of Berlize, and steward at the royal court. Aignan de Baussan was shield-barrier, and later Lord of Ogny and Brolise.

A number of persons of the here described French family de Dormans can be considered as possible ancestors of the south-Limburgian family Dormans. 

The possible link exists between Mathias Dormans and the de Dormans family.  It is possible to question if a male de Dormans born before 1550 is his father.   Mathias Dormans, who married in 1597, was born in about 1570, so his father was likely born in about 1550. The possible ancestors are: Guillaume de Dormans, born before 1405 as son of bischop Guillaume II de Dormans, and legalised in 1440; and the brothers Jean V de Dormans and Louis de Dormans, born in about 1510, sons of Guillaume III de Dormans. 

From these three persons no offspring has been mentioned.

According to various sources the French family de Dormans became extinct at the end of the sixteenth century: so it was described by P.Lainé in 1818 in the manual of the French nobility (7), and as recorded in the history of the castle of Dormans and his inhabitants, reported at Wikipedia. 

Around 1550 the last ancestor of the family Charles II de Dormans was born, and he had only daughters. After 1638, when his last daughter died, the family name de Dormans no longer existed in France.

Much later in history, in the eighteenth and nineteenth century some French persons have the family name Dormans, without “de”

• in about 1730 - 1775 in the department Moselle, in the villages Diepling and Tenteling (nearby Saarbrucken) and in Rodemarck (nearby Luxemburg) respectively in 10, 8 and 2 documents (baptism, marriage and death).

• in the period 1760 - 1785 in the departement Val d’Oises, in the village Bonneuil-en-France (near Paris) one document.

• in the period 1830 - 1885 in the departement Nord in the villages of Fiers Lez Lille (nearby Caen) and Valenciennes (nearby the Belgian border) : each one document.

• in the period 1837 - 1880 in Paris 5 marriage documents (respectively Leonard, Louis, Louis Alexandre, Nicolas Clement and Josephine Dormans)

• in the period 1840 – 1885 in the departement Vosges in the villages Juvaincourt one document and in Mirecourt 37 documents (both villages nearby Nancy)

In the period 1916-1940 only 4 births are mentioned in the departements Eure-et-Loire (2x), Charente Maritime and Lot-et-Garonne. In the periods 1891 – 1915 and 1941 – 1990 no births named Dormans were recorded in France.

The most frequent Christian names Mathias, Nicolaas and Servatius in the beginning of the seventeenth century in the Limburgian family were not present in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries in France. On the other hand the frequently occurring names of Guillaume, Jean and Charles in the French family are not present in the Limburgian family. Where the family name Dormans in de eighteenth century in France and the South-Limburgian family name Dormans in the sixteenth century originally came from, is still a question without an answer.

A link between the South-Limburgian family Dormans and the French family de Dormans has not been demonstrated.